MemberAugust 11, 2020 at 8:12 pm
Those saying we don’t have to keep the Law based upon Col 2:14 have misunderstood and misrepresented Paul’s writings. Ok
We are to keep the Law and have faith in Mashiyach.
Revelation 14:12 KJVA
“Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.”
MemberAugust 11, 2020 at 9:14 pm
Hmm,to respectfully put it I believe Grace is in place because the OT is strictly when were in Jerusalem the Law was applied during the time of Moses but our scriptures say Christ came to fulfill Matthew 5:17-18 connects with this topic from what I discern and observe.. Grace means No Law but only reasons why are not under Law is because we are under captivity and being captivity things changed..
MemberAugust 11, 2020 at 10:21 pm
of course the Messiah came to fulfill the Law but however he knew we couldn’t keep it and meant to say say sorry because we are in captivity things changed..
MemberAugust 11, 2020 at 9:34 pm
We are expected to keep the Law in our captivity. His return is based on our return to his commandments.
Deuteronomy 30:1-3 KJVA
“And it shall come to pass, when all these things are come upon thee, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before thee, and thou shalt call them to mind among all the nations, whither the Lord thy God hath driven thee, and shalt return unto the Lord thy God, and shalt obey his voice according to all that I command thee this day, thou and thy children, with all thine heart, and with all thy soul; that then the Lord thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, 👉🏾and will return👈🏾 and gather thee from all the nations, whither the Lord thy God hath scattered thee.”
MemberAugust 11, 2020 at 11:05 pm
but yes brotha,we are Under Grace right now most of us couldn’t keep the Laws of Moses but however there is a New Covenant mentioned we couldn’t keep the Old because we broke it but continue reading verses pray for insight on this matter Peace and Joy my brotha..
MemberAugust 12, 2020 at 4:47 am
So Grace gives us liberty to sin?
MemberAugust 12, 2020 at 5:35 am
Shalowm, Brothers. Sha’ul (Paul) addresses this matter of grace and the Law in Romans 6. Yes we are under grace, but the mistake is in thinking that being under grace somehow permits us to ignore or transgress the Towrah. This is not true. See Romans 6:1-2 and Verse 15. For clarity, Romans 6:15 reads: “What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.” If we understand sin to be transgression of the Towrah (as it is biblically defined in 1 John 3:4), then it is pretty clear that being under grace does not mean that we are not to walk in obedience to the Towrah (see 1 John 2:3-6; John 14:15; Romans 2:13; Revelation 22:14 (KJV, not NIV); Romans 3:31). We do not save ourselves through obedience (that is the job of faith in Mashiyach), but we nonetheless keep the Law out of love for the Most High and His Son (John 14:15,21; 1 John 5:2-3). Hope this helps!
MemberAugust 12, 2020 at 4:49 pm
Good points I’m just reading right now..
MemberAugust 19, 2020 at 6:46 pm
Grace comes from the Law actually (Matthew 23:23). We were guilty and the messiah died at your place to set you free from sin or from the Law of sin and death which is different than the Law of YHWH.
The reason why we could not do the Law was not because it was too hard, but because our heart was not circumcised. We were living to sin unto death by walking in the flesh with sin dwelling in us and not the Spirit of the Law in us to help us do the Law (Roman 7:14-24). In YHWHSHUA not only we are saved from sin, but through him we received the gift of his Spirit from the Father, the power that we needed to serve the Law of YHWH.
YHWH said in Deuteronomy 30: 11 that the commandment that I command us is not hidden or too hard for us, neither is it far off. John said in John 5:3 This is the love of YAH that we keep his commandments and his commandments are not grievous.
One of the prophecy after we remember who we are and return to YHWH is to obey all his commandments, and it’s only then, he will return to gather us.
there is no neutral freedom, you are either under the Law of sin unto death or you are under obedience unto the Law of YHWH.
MemberAugust 20, 2020 at 4:33 pm
Very well said!
MemberAugust 11, 2020 at 10:17 pm
lets say this if the Law were effective in Captivity how many of us are keeping it..?
MemberAugust 12, 2020 at 4:48 am
I know several who keep it. I keep it.
MemberAugust 24, 2020 at 8:12 pm
If one reads Leviticus, or let the audio version read, it’s easy to see that it’s not hard to keep the laws. Most laws should be common sense and are things that many people don’t do anyway. Being in captivity is not an excuse. We have no chains on us physically. We have the “free will” to do whatever we want. God knows some laws we can’t do being in the land of our captivity.
Leviticus 20:13-16 KJV
“If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them. And if a man take a wife and her mother, it is wickedness: they shall be burnt with fire, both he and they; that there be no wickedness among you. And if a man lie with a beast, he shall surely be put to death: and ye shall slay the beast. And if a woman approach unto any beast, and lie down thereto, thou shalt kill the woman, and the beast: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.”
MemberAugust 12, 2020 at 5:44 am
This question is besides the point, Bro Eri. It is irrelevant how many of us are keeping it in captivity. What is important is what Scripture has to say about whether or not we should. Now, there are certain aspects of the Law to do with animal sacrifice and the Priesthood that are impossible to keep now (Hosea 3:4); but once we understand that our Mashiyach/Messiah is our High Priest (Hebrews 4:14; 9:11) and that His death has fulfilled the animal sacrifice system (Hebrews 9:11-14), then it’s pretty clear that we need not concern ourselves with going to an earthly Priest as an intermediary, or with killing animals for sacrifice. However, the rest of the Towrah remains. The Law is a blueprint for how people in Covenant with the Most High ought to live (Deuteronomy 6:25). We would be wise to study and follow it.
MemberAugust 17, 2020 at 7:01 pm
I agree with you brother on the sacrifices. But please tell me what you think of these verse here.
14 For we know that THE LAW IS SPIRITUAL: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
1 Peter 2:5
5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, TO OFFER UP SPIRITUAL SACRIFICES, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?
12 For the priesthood being changed G3346, there is made of necessity a change G3331 also of the law.
Strong’s G3346 – metatithemi
TO TRANSPOSE (TWO THINGS, ONE OF WHICH IS PUT IN PLACE OF THE OTHER)
to transfer one’s self or suffer one’s self to be transferred
to go or pass over
TO FALL AWAY OR DESERT FROM ONE PERSON OR THING TO ANOTHER
Strong’s G3331 – metathesis
TRANSFER: FROM ONE PLACE TO ANOTHER
of things instituted or established
12 For the priesthood being TRANSPOSED (From Aaron to Yahushua) there is made of necessity a TRANSFERANCE also of the law (From the Levitical Priesthood to the Melchisedec Priesthood).
MemberAugust 19, 2020 at 6:02 am
Shalowm, Brother Jermaine. Please forgive my late response. See my responses on the verses you mentioned below:
Romans 7:14 — There isn’t much to be said here as the verse is quite self-explanatory. Sha’ul (Paul) here is telling us that the Towrah is spiritual, and thus serves as a guide to those of us who wish to serve Yah in newness of Spirit. Beyond that, there is of course a lot that Sha’ul has to say from Verse 7 to 25 of this Chapter, but a full discussion of that passage is outside of the scope of my response to your question, and would most certainly require a study of its own.
1 Peter 2:5 — Here Kepa (Peter) is drawing an analogy between the Temple, the High Priest and the sacrificial system outlined in Towrah on the one hand; and, on the other hand, our bodies (temples), Mashiyach our new High Priest, and the sacrifice of a righteous life. The same way how an Israelite in former times would take a sacrifice/offering to the Temple to be offered up to the Most High by the Priest/High Priest (for example, a freewill or peace offering); we today are to daily offer up such sacrifices to the Most High via our High Priest (who is Mashiyach), our bodies being the temple where such sacrifices are made. He is using the imagery of the Temple and sacrificial system to instruct believers in how they are to live and walk in righteousness. I would take the analogy one step further and say that the fire that burned up those sacrifices in former times is today replaced by the fire of the Holy Spirit within us today (Acts 2:1-4). I would also say that our lifted hands (1 Timothy 2:8), raised towards the Most High when we pray and worship, are representative of the same flames of fire that burned up the sacrifices in former times.
Hebrews 7:11-12 — Here the author is explaining that the High Priesthood of our Mashiyach, which is after the order of Melchizedek, has replaced the High Priesthood after the order of Aharon. Therefore, there was a change in the High Priesthood, and also a concomitant change in the Law (regarding the Priesthood). Christians are fond of using this passage to support the claim that the entire Law has been done away with; but that it evidently not what is being stated here, as the context is clearly the Priesthood specifically.
Hope this helps!
MemberAugust 12, 2020 at 9:04 pm
Only the laws dealing with sacrifice (EPH 2:13-15;COL2: 14-17; HEB9:10-14,19. are done away with.
These laws were having to do with blood sacrifice; laws contained in ordinances. They were temporary and were to lead our people to Yahshua. These laws having to do with the sanctuary services were to teach our people about Yahshua’s mission and point us to Him. He is the Lamb of Yah. They ended at His crucifixion. These were the laws Moses and the 70 elders wrote in books for our people. Not to be confused with the 10 Commandments which were written on 2 tables of stone with Yah’s own finger. The 10 Commandments are still binding. They were placed inside the Ark while the laws written by Moses and 70 elders were placed in the side of the ark (DEUT 10:2; 31: 24-26). Time and space will not allow me to go into more details, but the 10 Commandments are the transcript of Yah’s character I.e. they are holy, just, spiritual,truth,love,good and stand forever. The ceremonial laws were burdensome and against us, they were the school master to bring us to Yahshua (GAL. 3:24,25).
MemberAugust 16, 2020 at 10:09 am
When you say “Ceremonial Laws” what are you referring to? The feasts? Or the sacrificial laws? Or both?
MemberAugust 13, 2020 at 5:41 am
I’ve been taught and I strictly adhere to the teachings of Grace and that the Law had been abolished at the cross and we no longer have to follow any of them. But recently, back in May, I had a dream where I heard a Voice said to me, “the Blood and the Testimony”. I repeated what the repeated what I heard and kept saying it, “the Blood and the Testimony”, “the Blood and the Testimony”. When I woke up, I was actually repeating this out loud in reality. I saw nothing in the dream, i just heard a Voice and it said nothing more than that. Up to this day I am still confused because I know what I was taught and what I believe and this dream seems to be conflicting that. I’m still researching the scriptures for clarity but what I found interesting is that the disciples still kept the Law, including Paul; what Jesus said in Matthew 5:18-19, Rev 22:14. These things I didn’t read for myself before now. But I’m not yet conceding as I need to know for sure. I just don’t want to be deceived and led astray. If what I have been taught was wrong, Yah help me because I’ll be distraught but I will apologise and do it.
Hi, Doreen. Thanks for sharing! Like you and many others here, I too was taught that the Law has been done away with. However, through years of study, I have come to realise that obedience (to the Law) is an integral part of our walk with the Most High; not because we wish to save ourselves, but rather because we love Him and wish to walk as He walked. I would direct you to the series of Bible passages posted by Savion below, all of which are illustrative of the requirement for believers to keep the Law. I would also direct you to a study I have posted on this network titled, “<b style=”font-family: inherit; font-size: inherit;”>Obedience to the Law as the sign of our love for Yahueh and His Son“. It can be found at this link: https://hebrewsphere.com/forums/discussion/obedience-to-the-law-as-the-sign-of-our-love-for-yahueh-and-his-son/. I hope it helps you on your journey! Shalowm to you, Sister.
MemberAugust 19, 2020 at 7:35 pm
we have been taught wrong concerning the Law of YHWH and I was among the people fighting against those that are teaching that we needed to keep the Law. Grace or mercy comes from the Law of YHWH (Matthew 23:23). YHWHSHUA said in Matthew 5:17-18 that he did come to destroy the Law or the prophets, but to make full.
The Law that YHWHSHUA abolished at the cross is the Law of sin and death or another word to say in the scripture is he crucified sin in the flesh (Roman 8:2). Salvation from sin in the Messiah leads to the future SALVATION and you need to keep the commandments of YHWH and the faith of his Son YHWHSHUA till the end to be saved (Matthew 24:13, Revelation 14:12). Doreen, the Law of YHWH is his testimony (Psalms 19:7, Exodus 25:16, Exodus 31:18, Exodus 32:15). His Law is his Word and it is spiritual (Roman 7:12).
It is also a prophecy that we will remember ourselves to return to YHWH, and obey all his commandments in Deuteronomy 30:1-7. Pray to be filled with his Spirit and his Spirit will teach all thing and help you to uphold the Law.
MemberAugust 13, 2020 at 7:18 am
Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
If ye love me, keep my commandments.
He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father’s commandments, and abide in his love.
1 John 2:3
And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
1 John 2:4
He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
1 John 3:22
And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.
1 John 3:24
And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.
1 John 5:2
By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
1 John 5:3
For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
2 John 1:6
And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it.
Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
Excellent verses, Savion! Thank you!
MemberAugust 13, 2020 at 8:19 pm
I would like to apologize family I’m reading on this do forgive my actions…
MemberAugust 14, 2020 at 9:27 am
We are all on that journey to deeper and clearer understanding, Brother (I’m assuming you’re a brother from your name; forgive me if I’m wrong). I hope the info being shared is helpful to you on your walk. Shalowm, shalowm.
MemberAugust 16, 2020 at 10:32 am
1 John 3:22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.
1 John 3:23<sup> </sup>And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
1 John 3:24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.
MemberAugust 18, 2020 at 3:01 pm
I’m in agreement to try to keep the Laws to the best of my ability. Especially when YAHUSHUA himself said to KEEP THE LAWS.
MemberAugust 14, 2020 at 10:23 am
Galatians 4:14 For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”
I am of the belief that Yeshua was our Passover Lamb, the suffering servant of Isaiah 53. And so his death symbolized the abolishion of the Levitical priestly ordinances. In other words, it is no longer necessary to sacrifice goats and cattle for the sake of atonement. My justification for this is a series of verses wherein the Most High himself expresses his displeasure in our works of the flesh.
Isaiah 1:11 “The multitude of your sacrifices– what are they to me?” says the LORD. “I have more than enough of burnt offerings, of rams and the fat of fattened animals; I have no pleasure in the blood of bulls and lambs and goats.
1 Samuel 15:22
But Samuel declared: “Does the LORD delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices as much as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, obedience is better than sacrifice, and attentiveness is better than the fat of rams.
The sacrifice of the wicked is detestable to the LORD, but the prayer of the upright is His delight.
To do righteousness and justice is more desirable to the LORD than sacrifice.
What use to Me is frankincense from Sheba or sweet cane from a distant land? Your burnt offerings are not acceptable; your sacrifices do not please Me.”
Even though you offer Me burnt offerings and grain offerings, I will not accept them; for your peace offerings of fattened cattle, I will have no regard.
“Oh, that one of you would shut the temple doors, so that you would no longer kindle useless fires on My altar! I take no pleasure in you,” says the LORD of Hosts, “and I will accept no offering from your hands.”
I could go on and on. The point is, to all you hardcore Pharisaic law keepers out there. You can build an alter and sacrifice as many goats and sheep as you want. The Most High will not accept any of it. Why? Because He already sent His son Yeshua to act as your Passover Lamb. To atone for the sins of Israel forever. That is what the crucifixion was all about. Jesus died for the sins of Israel only. This does not mean we mustn’t keep the Sabbath day or any of the feasts. It just means no more sacrifices and burnt offerings.
MemberAugust 16, 2020 at 8:36 am
Nfaly, you keep going on about sacrificing animals, but that’s not what we’re talking about when we talk about obedience to the Law. I’m not sure how you got the impression that we are arguing for a reinstitution of the sacrificial system; but we’re not.
The Towrah/Law includes the commandments, statutes and judgements given to our forefathers by the Most High on the one hand; and on the other hand the sacrificial system that was provided to allow for atonement of sin, and served as a foreshadowing of the ultimate sacrifice of our Mashiyach. (This is because there is no atonement without the shedding of blood — Hebrews 9:22; cf. Leviticus 17:11; Exodus 30:10.)
It is the former part of the Law that defines righteousness in the eyes of the Most High (Deuteronomy 6:25; Luke 1:5-6), and it is this part of the Law that we are to keep (Romans 3:31; 1 John 2:3-6). This is how we demonstrate that we love the Father and the Son (John 14:15; John 14:21; 1 John 5:2-3). No part of this Law will be done away with until heaven and earth pass (Matthew 5:17-20). However, the sacrificial system only pointed to the Messiah and was fulfilled in Him (Hebrews 9:11-15; 10:1-10).
Therefore, to sum up, we do not need to concern ourselves with animal sacrifice; but we ought to follow the counsel of the Towrah regarding matters like when and how we worship, what we eat and don’t eat, what we wear and don’t wear, how we treat each other, etc.
Hope this clarifies the point.
MemberOctober 8, 2020 at 4:52 am
I hate that I am coming into this discussion so late but I hope I can share two cents to expose some of the deeper issues we face when we discuss the subject of law or no law. To be clear I am for paying attention to and following the Torah through Christ as my high priest just like many of the brothers and sisters have said in this thread previously. So, I am not advocating for animal sacrifice. However, there are several issues I think that come up within our psyche when we consider keeping the law.
Most Bible readers know that Paul referred to God’s law as our Tutor leading us to faith in Christ (Gal 3:24). But, many of us focus too heavily on the idea that the law tutors us in right and wrong. We focus heavily on the right/wrong aspect of the law because we are consumed with that concept as a result of the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil which all humans have been partakers of since the fall of Adam and Eve in the garden. That is, we tend to believe the sole purpose of the law is to teach us righteous behavior. Therefore, because it causes us to feel less righteous instead of more righteous we erroneously apply Gal 3:25 which says that after faith has come we no longer need a tutor. We jump on that scripture and ride it for dear life because our greatest focus is in clearing our conscience as apposed to truly developing a relationship with God.
We miss the fact that the Torah also teaches us about the character of God. The Torah established the only culture in the world that promotes the constant remembrance of God as TMH and the realization of His constant presence. If you notice all culture extends out of antiquity (nothing new under the sun, Ecclesiastes) and every culture outside of the Torah promotes a heavy focus on man’s elevation to a higher status (i.e. enlightenment). This includes Judaism, western Christianity, and Islam. America is heavily steeped in just such a culture. Hence, Christmas quickly becomes less about remembering Christ and more about “It’s better to give than to receive” for one example. Therefore, one reason we are quick to reject the law is that it stands in the way of us declaring ourselves enlightened.
Now quickly, about Gal 3:25 of course this verse is infallible but the problem here is not it’s interpretation but its application to each individual. It reads, “But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.” We want so desperately to be done with the law that we are too quick to assume that faith has come in our lives just because we said we believe in Christ. Having faith in God means believing in the reality of His presence in our lives in all of His glory (e.g. omniscience, omnipresence, omnipotence, etc.). Now how many of you can say you wouldn’t have a problem sinning if God was sitting right next to you, looking at you? How many of you struggling with porn addiction could enjoy porn with God sitting right there watching you. There is no way, right? Therefore, if you continue to submit to the temptations of habitual sin it is a sign that the faith of Gal 3:25 has not come and you are still in need of a tutor. Not that you don’t have grace but the faith part is lacking.
Lastly, about faith, Christ promised a few manifestations of this same faith. He promised we would move mountains (Matt 21:21) and do greater works than He did John 14:12. I believe when I reach this level of relationship with God I will no longer be in need of a tutor and not a moment sooner.
For brevity, I have left out the issue of Torah culture being counter-cultural in America and how the media has made Torah culture seem similar to what we believe is cultish behavior leading us to want to disassociate ourselves from it. Too much to say in one post but I am happy to discuss further.
MemberOctober 8, 2020 at 6:22 am
Nice read Kenneth! Often times that’s how I stop doing things I know I shouldn’t- is to imagine Yah standing right beside me and I start to feel sooo guilty that I stop. – For this I am very much grateful it has helped me to change from doing alot of things.
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